Discussion:
here's kink to hoa progibiting the actual transmissions of cb and ham signals, not just antennas
(too old to reply)
radioguy
2008-12-15 03:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.

This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.

Now again, what good does any federal or state law allowing cb and ham
antennas do when the CC&Rs
very clearly say that the actual transmitting of cb and ham radio
signals are against the rules?

The reason given is it causes interference.

However, since you don't even have to be on hoa property to cause
interferece with a cb or ham radio,
it would seem that this hoa would also frown upon mobile operation
from off the hoa propetrty if the signal
can be recieved on hoa property.

Even though I didn't notice any rules at this one prohibiting mobile
operation.

However, there have already been other hoas going after mobile
operators operating off of hoa property even
though the hoa rules didn't mention any bans on mobile operating.

And from what I heard, usually upheld by the courts.


http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:U75KrwckTRAJ:www.silveroakshoa.net/show_file.php%3Fid%3D13293%26type_lib%3D22+%22cb+radio%22%2B%22not+in%22%2B%22hoa%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

And several people have already said that the FCC has stated several
times that the FCC doesn't have any
authority over it "since it's a volunatary contract" and is therefoe
unable to do anything about it.

So basically, the FCC has admitted and stated that HOA rules regarding
radio regulation outweigh and
overrule FCC rules regarding radio regulations.
m***@yahoo.com
2008-12-15 13:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
 just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
Now again, what good does any federal or state law allowing cb and ham
antennas do when the CC&Rs
very clearly say that the actual transmitting of cb and ham radio
signals are against the rules?
The reason given is it causes interference.
However, since you don't even have to be on hoa property to cause
interferece with a cb or ham radio,
it would seem that this hoa would also frown upon mobile operation
from off the hoa propetrty if the signal
can be recieved on hoa property.
Even though I didn't notice any rules at this one prohibiting mobile
operation.
However, there have already been other hoas going after mobile
operators operating off of hoa property even
though the hoa rules didn't mention any bans on mobile operating.
And from what I heard, usually upheld by the courts.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:U75KrwckTRAJ:www.silveroakshoa.ne...
And several people have already said that the FCC has stated several
times that the FCC doesn't have any
authority over it "since it's a volunatary contract" and is therefoe
unable to do anything about it.
So basically, the FCC has admitted and stated that HOA rules regarding
radio regulation outweigh and
overrule FCC rules regarding radio regulations.
don't move there, it is quite simple.
an old friend
2008-12-15 20:11:45 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 15, 8:16 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
stop pretending to human on these threads
m***@yahoo.com
2008-12-15 20:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by an old friend
stop pretending to human on these threads
stop pretending to not be a faggot
Monty Hall
2008-12-15 21:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by an old friend
stop pretending to human on these threads
stop pretending to not be a faggot


Wow....Where is Telamon? I know he wants to get in on the fun.....
an_old_friend
2008-12-15 23:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by an old friend
stop pretending to human on these threads
stop pretending to not be a faggot
what?
radioguy
2008-12-16 06:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
 just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
Now again, what good does any federal or state law allowing cb and ham
antennas do when the CC&Rs
very clearly say that the actual transmitting of cb and ham radio
signals are against the rules?
The reason given is it causes interference.
However, since you don't even have to be on hoa property to cause
interferece with a cb or ham radio,
it would seem that this hoa would also frown upon mobile operation
from off the hoa propetrty if the signal
can be recieved on hoa property.
Even though I didn't notice any rules at this one prohibiting mobile
operation.
However, there have already been other hoas going after mobile
operators operating off of hoa property even
though the hoa rules didn't mention any bans on mobile operating.
And from what I heard, usually upheld by the courts.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:U75KrwckTRAJ:www.silveroakshoa.ne...
And several people have already said that the FCC has stated several
times that the FCC doesn't have any
authority over it "since it's a volunatary contract" and is therefoe
unable to do anything about it.
So basically, the FCC has admitted and stated that HOA rules regarding
radio regulation outweigh and
overrule FCC rules regarding radio regulations.
don't move there, it is quite simple.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Now you do know, don't you, that NOT living in a HOA does NOT stop
HOAS from going after you for violating their HOA rules and that
living in a
place without HOAs withoutCC&Rs without anything stating that HOAs can
take over later does NOT stop HOAS or CC&Rs from taking over your
non-HOA non CC&R home and property. The latter has actually happened
to me. So DON'T tell me it's as simple as just not moving into a
place
without a HOA or CC&Rs. It's NOT. I now KNOW better. I found out the
hard way. Which cost me a lot of money that I couldn't realy afford.

The following examples are not from my cases, however

HOAS have went after cell phone companiesfor building cell phone
towers that were NOT on any HOA property at all.

HOAS have went after some hams for having ham radio towers on their
own property where both the house and land were NOT in nor part of
any
HOA atall, and had no CC&R restrictions on the house or land at all.

The HOAS still put liens on those hams' houses for refusing to join
the hoa and follow hoa rules and hoa CC&Rs, even though there were NOT
any
laws permitting them to do so.

My exeriences with a HOA/CC&Rs is a long one to tell, but to make it
very brief in this message, which doen't even begin to explain the
half of it, I had moved into the
cheapest trailer park in that county. Everything was decent and the
place was taken good care of until a new landlord took over and
started imposing a bunch of HOA rules and CC&Rs on the residents of
the trailer park where there had been none before.

The old landlord/trailer park owner was very upset about not owning
the trailer park anymore which makes me think it was taken over by
eminent domain
instead of being willfully sold.

The new landlord raised the rent the trailers at least every two
months, sometimes every month. The rent went up at least fifteen times
in less than
one year.

What used to be the least expensive trailer pak to live in in that
county was now the most expensive trailer park to live in in that
county.

And it was now a dump because of the new landlord where it had been a
nice decent looking place before the new landlord/trailer park owner .

Other people could no longer afford to live in their trailers. So the
new landlord had their trailers bulldozed.

He also hired bulldozers to "improve" the place which made it a dump
and ruined my car that I had at the time.

Even going one mile per hour, the and now scrapedheavily against the
bottom of my car, and that was the only way to get my car to my
trailer's driveway
since cars were no longer allowed to be parked out of your own
driveway.

When it was the cheapest trailer park under the ownership of the old
landlord, the snow in the winter was always cleared. The place is in
the middle
of the "Snow Belt" here.

While it was the most expensive trailer park under ownership of the
new landlord, the snow was NEVER plowed, and city snow trucks would
NOT
plow there "since it's private property owned by the trailer park's
landlord. The city isn't allowed to plow there. It's against the law
for the city
to plow there without the permission of the trailer park owner".

Shovel it by hand you say? Nope. That was against the new CC&Rs.
Because the only place you could put the snow you shoveled was to pile
it
upon your yard, which was NOT allowed by the new CC&Rs.

And besides, you CAN'T shovel ice which sometimes happened there in
the winter.

And putting salt on the ice to melt it was against the new CC&Rs.

Some other trailer park residents fought it (the whole thing) in court
and LOST the court cases!!!!!!

Since the place was no longer plowed, my car got stuck in the ice
when trying to leave for work one day. The tire was just barely
touching the trailer
park driveway off of my driveway. Less than an eighth of an inch.

The new landlord had by car towed and impounded for being off of my
driveway and being illegally parked on the trailer park driveway in
violation of
the CC&R rules of the trailer park.

Just because just ONLY ONE tire of my car was less than an eighth of
an inch off of my driveway. While the whole rest of the car incliding
the other
tires were all completely in my driveay.

And AFTER losing money from not making it to work that day, I had to
PAY a bunch of money to get my car out of impound. Money that I
didn't
really have. I had to borrow it from somewhere else/someome else.

And that's not even the half of it. It's not even half of the
beginning of it.

Months later, it turmed out that the new trailer park landlord was a
developer who was building very expensive townhouses right next door
to the trailer park.

No wonder he was making it hard on all of the people living in the
trailer park and forcing as many people out as he could and bulldozing
as many
trailers as he could.

After all, who living in expensive townhouses would want to live next
door to "trailer trash"???

The interesying thing here is that the trailer park was NOT a dump
until AFTER the new landlord/owner/land developer took it over.

BEFORE that, it was a very nice looking place.

SO DON'T TELL ME IT'S JUST AS EASY AS MOVING INTO A PLACE WITHOUT A
HOA OR ANY CC&rS. I NOW KNOW BETTER. I HAVE ALREADY
HAD EXPERIENCES WTH THAT.
Brenda Ann
2008-12-16 08:17:22 UTC
Permalink
"radioguy" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1da1d81-5a13-40cc-9baf-***@r10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Now you do know, don't you, that NOT living in a HOA does NOT stop
HOAS from going after you for violating their HOA rules and that
living in a
place without HOAs withoutCC&Rs without anything stating that HOAs can
take over later does NOT stop HOAS or CC&Rs from taking over your
non-HOA non CC&R home and property. The latter has actually happened
to me. So DON'T tell me it's as simple as just not moving into a
place
without a HOA or CC&Rs. It's NOT. I now KNOW better. I found out the
hard way. Which cost me a lot of money that I couldn't realy afford.

They would do so over their dead bodies to any property of mine (were I to
own any). Talk about your socialism, CC&R's are the very essence thereof.
Whatever happened to private property in this country? I don't recall that
any law was changed to say that my neighbors own any part of my home (nor I
of my neighbors.) When the neighbors are paying your mortgage, then, and
ONLY then, should they have a say in what you do on your own property.
PERIOD.
WQGT447
2008-12-22 19:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
Now you do know, don't you, that NOT living in a HOA does NOT stop
HOAS from going after you for violating their HOA rules and that
living in a
place without HOAs withoutCC&Rs without anything stating that HOAs can
take over later does NOT stop HOAS or CC&Rs from taking over your
non-HOA non CC&R home and property. The latter has actually happened
to me. So DON'T tell me it's as simple as just not moving into a
place
without a HOA or CC&Rs. It's NOT. I now KNOW better. I found out the
hard way. Which cost me a lot of money that I couldn't realy afford.
They would do so over their dead bodies to any property of mine (were I to
own any). Talk about your socialism, CC&R's are the very essence thereof.
Whatever happened to private property in this country? I don't recall that
any law was changed to say that my neighbors own any part of my home (nor I
of my neighbors.) When the neighbors are paying your mortgage, then, and
ONLY then, should they have a say in what you do on your own property.
PERIOD.
Despite my liberal leanings, I agree with you, Brenda Ann.
Responsibly-wrought Zoning ordinances are one thing - fussy NIMBY
CC&Rs are another. I live in an HOA that is not bad (we have no
antenna restrictions that I know of). Some are not so lucky, but
frankly, I've been told by County attorneys that it is pretty hard to
make a CC&R-related "violation" stick in court. Still, one may have
to go through the trouble to challenge them.

Bruce
radioguy
2008-12-16 06:18:17 UTC
Permalink
As a followup to my previous post, we lost our trailer that was bought
with our money since we could no longer afford to live there. And our
trailer was
also bulldozed.

As I said, that's not even half the beginning of it.
I can afford are
Which is why I never wwant to live in any place with a HOA, or CC&Rs
again, no even NA's.

However, I can currently only afford apartments, most of which have
some sort of CC&Rs.
Wouff Hong
2008-12-16 22:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
As a followup to my previous post, we lost our trailer that was bought
with our money since we could no longer afford to live there. And our
trailer was
also bulldozed.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!


You got lucky. Some people in trailer parks have to wait for a tornado.


Wouff
radioguy
2008-12-20 12:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
 just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
Now again, what good does any federal or state law allowing cb and ham
antennas do when the CC&Rs
very clearly say that the actual transmitting of cb and ham radio
signals are against the rules?
The reason given is it causes interference.
However, since you don't even have to be on hoa property to cause
interferece with a cb or ham radio,
it would seem that this hoa would also frown upon mobile operation
from off the hoa propetrty if the signal
can be recieved on hoa property.
Even though I didn't notice any rules at this one prohibiting mobile
operation.
However, there have already been other hoas going after mobile
operators operating off of hoa property even
though the hoa rules didn't mention any bans on mobile operating.
And from what I heard, usually upheld by the courts.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:U75KrwckTRAJ:www.silveroakshoa.ne...
And several people have already said that the FCC has stated several
times that the FCC doesn't have any
authority over it "since it's a volunatary contract" and is therefoe
unable to do anything about it.
So basically, the FCC has admitted and stated that HOA rules regarding
radio regulation outweigh and
overrule FCC rules regarding radio regulations.
don't move there, it is quite simple.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No it isn't that simple.

2. I read about another ham in a non hoa non CC&R place who was fined
and sued by a HOA in a completelydifferent city because they didn't
like his antenna tower. And it was against the hoa's rules.

He didn't even live in the same city the hoa was in.

His property wasn't even anywhere near that hoa.

His property was not psart of any hoa or CC&Rs.

The hoa residents didn't like seeing it when they drove through HIS
city on the way to and from their work

3. I read about another ham who specifically moved to a non hoa non
CC&R place and his place was taken over by HOAs and CC&Rs by land
developers
making CC&Rs that attached his property to HOA CC&Rs when there had
been absolutely none before.

He took them to court and lost!!!! The hoa won!!!!

1. I myself lived in a non HOA non CC&R place which had hoa CC&Rs
imposed on it after a new landlord took over. It turned out he was a
land developer building expensive townhouses who had somehow taken
over by eminent domain even though only governments are supposed to be
able to do that.
m***@sushi.com
2008-12-16 01:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
 just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
Now again, what good does any federal or state law allowing cb and ham
antennas do when the CC&Rs
very clearly say that the actual transmitting of cb and ham radio
signals are against the rules?
The reason given is it causes interference.
However, since you don't even have to be on hoa property to cause
interferece with a cb or ham radio,
it would seem that this hoa would also frown upon mobile operation
from off the hoa propetrty if the signal
can be recieved on hoa property.
Even though I didn't notice any rules at this one prohibiting mobile
operation.
However, there have already been other hoas going after mobile
operators operating off of hoa property even
though the hoa rules didn't mention any bans on mobile operating.
And from what I heard, usually upheld by the courts.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:U75KrwckTRAJ:www.silveroakshoa.ne...
And several people have already said that the FCC has stated several
times that the FCC doesn't have any
authority over it "since it's a volunatary contract" and is therefoe
unable to do anything about it.
So basically, the FCC has admitted and stated that HOA rules regarding
radio regulation outweigh and
overrule FCC rules regarding radio regulations.
Federal law trumps state law which trumps local law. You can write any
old BS law you want, but that doesn't make it legal. It simply means
you have to test it in court. For instance, the feds say you can have
a 1 meter dish CONUS. Nobody can stop you.

The problem is the HOA puts liens on property, so you really need
gonads to take on these jerks.
Dave
2008-12-16 13:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
You can't lump CB and the Amateur service in the same issue. CBers are
clowns and should be banned, period.
BDK
2008-12-16 20:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
You can't lump CB and the Amateur service in the same issue. CBers are
clowns and should be banned, period.
And why is that? Just because you don't like them?


CB is what got me into ham radio.
--
BDK

BDK Klan leader?
kOOk Magnet!
NJJ CLUB #1
Shillmaster
Wouff Hong
2008-12-16 22:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by BDK
CB is what got me into ham radio.
That, and the elimination of the code test. Ten-Four good Buddy?

CQ Breaker, CQ Breaker!

Wouff
radioguy
2008-12-16 23:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wouff Hong
Post by BDK
CB is what got me into ham radio.
That, and the elimination of the code test. Ten-Four good Buddy?
CQ Breaker, CQ Breaker!
Wouff
I have heard hams on my local repeaters saying "ten four".

But guess what?

A lot of those using it as such on the ham bands were hams BEFORE CB
was ever even thought of as a radio service!!!!

They were hams BEFORE CB even existed as a radio service!!!!!
Brenda Ann
2008-12-17 01:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wouff Hong
Post by BDK
CB is what got me into ham radio.
That, and the elimination of the code test. Ten-Four good Buddy?
CQ Breaker, CQ Breaker!
Wouff
I have heard hams on my local repeaters saying "ten four".

But guess what?

A lot of those using it as such on the ham bands were hams BEFORE CB
was ever even thought of as a radio service!!!!

They were hams BEFORE CB even existed as a radio service!!!!!

'ems some OLD hams. Citizens Radio Service (11m) has existed since the
mid-late 1950's. Of course, it didn't start to take off until the mid '70's.
Within two years of that, it was already insane. It's a bit better now,
since most folks have sold or tossed their radios long since.
BDK
2008-12-17 01:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wouff Hong
Post by BDK
CB is what got me into ham radio.
That, and the elimination of the code test. Ten-Four good Buddy?
LOL, I took the damn code in 1973. What an annoying mode.
Post by Wouff Hong
CQ Breaker, CQ Breaker!
RAYYYYYYYDDDDDIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Post by Wouff Hong
Wouff
--
BDK

BDK Klan leader?
kOOk Magnet!
NJJ CLUB #1
Shillmaster
radioguy
2008-12-17 08:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by BDK
Post by Wouff Hong
Post by BDK
CB is what got me into ham radio.
That, and the elimination of the code test. Ten-Four good Buddy?
LOL, I took the damn code in 1973. What an annoying mode.
Post by Wouff Hong
CQ Breaker, CQ Breaker!
RAYYYYYYYDDDDDIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
okay, here's one the pro-coders either never thought of or did think
of and just didn't want to mention it or post it at all.

Which I know is true in at least some people's cases.

How many of the no-code ham radio technicians used to practice cw/
morse code on the old 49 mhz radios when they were kids?

Or on the older 27 mhz radios when they were kids?

Just because they are a no-code ham radio technician today doesn't
necessarilly mean that they never ever used morse code in their entire
lives.
BDK
2008-12-17 17:53:36 UTC
Permalink
In article <3cf36e52-3c39-4f2c-86ab-9109b6311899
@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, ***@yahoo.com says...
Post by radioguy
Post by BDK
Post by Wouff Hong
Post by BDK
CB is what got me into ham radio.
That, and the elimination of the code test. Ten-Four good Buddy?
LOL, I took the damn code in 1973. What an annoying mode.
Post by Wouff Hong
CQ Breaker, CQ Breaker!
RAYYYYYYYDDDDDIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
okay, here's one the pro-coders either never thought of or did think
of and just didn't want to mention it or post it at all.
Which I know is true in at least some people's cases.
How many of the no-code ham radio technicians used to practice cw/
morse code on the old 49 mhz radios when they were kids?
Or on the older 27 mhz radios when they were kids?
Just because they are a no-code ham radio technician today doesn't
necessarilly mean that they never ever used morse code in their entire
lives.
Yeah, we used to do it on the old walkie talkies we had. Channel 14, of
course.
--
BDK

BDK Klan leader?
kOOk Magnet!
NJJ CLUB #1
Shillmaster
RHF
2008-12-16 22:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
 just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
- You can't lump CB and the Amateur service in the same issue.
- CBers are clowns and should be banned, period.

Dave - Spoken like the 'Elitist' you are ~ RHF
.
none
2008-12-17 13:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by RHF
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
- You can't lump CB and the Amateur service in the same issue.
- CBers are clowns and should be banned, period.
Dave - Spoken like the 'Elitist' you are ~ RHF
.
Excuse me for having standards. What's the opposite of "elite"?
Brenda Ann
2008-12-17 22:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by none
Post by RHF
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
- You can't lump CB and the Amateur service in the same issue.
- CBers are clowns and should be banned, period.
Dave - Spoken like the 'Elitist' you are ~ RHF
.
Excuse me for having standards. What's the opposite of "elite"?
1 asingular or plural in construction : the choice part : cream <the elite
of the entertainment world> bsingular or plural in construction : the best
of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite - Marilyn Chase>
csingular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society
<how the elite live - A P World> <how the French-speaking elite.was
changing - Economist> d: a group of persons who by virtue of position or
education exercise much power or influence <members of the ruling elite>
<the intellectual elites of the country> e: a member of such an
elite -usually used in plural <the elites ., pursuing their studies in
Europe - Robert Wernick>

Near Antonyms commoners, masses, rank and file

I seem to remember when being among the best was something to strive for,
not something to deride....
WQGT447
2008-12-22 19:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda Ann
Post by RHF
Post by radioguy
Since peple didn't believe me, click on this link and take a look at,
I think number 7 and 8.
This is just one of the many hoas that now prohibit the actual
transmissions of cb radio and ham radio, besides
 just prohibiting the cb and ham antennas.
- You can't lump CB and the Amateur service in the same issue.
- CBers are clowns and should be banned, period.
Dave - Spoken like the 'Elitist' you are ~ RHF
 .
Excuse me for having standards.  What's the opposite of "elite"?
1 asingular or plural in construction : the choice part : cream <the elite
of the entertainment world> bsingular or plural in construction : the best
of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite - Marilyn Chase>
csingular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society
<how the elite live - A P World> <how the French-speaking elite.was
changing - Economist> d: a group of persons who by virtue of position or
education exercise much power or influence <members of the ruling elite>
<the intellectual elites of the country> e: a member of such an
elite -usually used in plural <the elites ., pursuing their studies in
Europe - Robert Wernick>
Near Antonyms commoners, masses, rank and file
I seem to remember when being among the best was something to strive for,
not something to deride....- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hear hear.

Bruce

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