FRS legal use questions

[WQGT447]

Hi, folks - this question is strictly for non-licensed FRS radios and
their possible legal use under applicable FCC regs.

Background - To be straight about this, I am geyser enthusiast at
Yellowstone in the summer (a geyser gazer :-). I and other gazers
communicate using FRS radios (I personally use a licensed GMRS radio
for greater range, but that is beside the point) about geyser eruption
times and impending geyser events. Our communications are generally
"professional" in that they are brief, to-the-point and specific to
geyser related topics; we use only one channel. We are experienced,
scientific about it, and know what we are doing. We are strictly
volunteers. If we want to communicate with family members for
personal reasons, we change channels. By and large, the FRS radios
work very well for this purpose.

Our transmissions are sometimes person-to-person, but as often-as-not,
are general notices to the many other gazers that important things are
happening at one or another geyser. Occasionally we will generally
warn of dangerous animals on the trails, or about people committing
acts of extreme foolishness or vandalism.

The Visitor Center also has an FRS radio so that they may listen to
our transmissions and thus be able to advise more casual visitors
about worthwhile geyser events. We are thus often the eyes and ears
of the Park Service when they cannot have their staff all over the
geyser basins (which is most of the time). They are quite happy we
are there, and we have a great relationship. We have helped countless
people get more out of their visits to the geysers.

The Visitor Center will occasionally make a general call out to
request eruption times for
specific geysers.

Now, the questions:

(1) Is this use of FRS radios legal?

(2) Is it legal for the Park VC staff (being gov't employees and on
the job) to occasionally transmit to get details or clarifications
from field volunteers?

The FCC has been coy about giving accurate or precise answers to these
questions, and seeing how folks here are likely to be well-versed in
FCC regs such as they are, thought I would try this avenue. We have
also had some dissatisfied folks threaten to report us and the VC
Staff to the FCC for using radios in a way that, according to their
reading of the rules, is illegal. We do want to be legal about this.
My deepest thanks for any help you can render!

Bruce Jensen

[Phil Stripling]

Post by WQGT447
and seeing how folks here are likely to be well-versed in
FCC regs such as they are, thought I would try this avenue.

I assume you've read Section Sec. 95.193(a) at

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.193.htm

I think that's pretty much all the help you'll get. Nobody here has any
greater authority on interpreting the regs than the people complaining
nor of your friends and you. Only the FCC has greater authority, and
they won't say.

My suggestion is to ask them for details on what they think you're
doing wrong, including section numbers if they know them. Tell them you
think you're complying, but if you're wrong you'll be happy to comply -
just tell you what the problem is and provide the source for their
identification of the problem.

You'll find jerks who know it all in every situation, radio, weather,
digging a hole - you name it. Arguing does no good, since they know it
all. Just ask for specifics and see if they're right. Aggravating as it
is, sometimes they are.

If you haven't read the rules (and I won't vouch that these are the
latest), there are four for FRS.

Rule 1 says you can use FRS unless you're the agent of a foreign
government:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.191.htm

Rule 2 tells where you can use FRS, and it's too long to summarize:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.192.htm

Rule 3 says you are to use FRS for two-way communication, with some
exceptions:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.193.htm

Rule 4 says FRS units must be FCC certified:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.194.htm


I think Rule 1 says the rangers at the park can use FRS, given that
they are not representatives of a foreign government. The problem is
Rule 3, which requires two-way communications, with these exceptions:
----quote------
You may use an FRS unit to transmit one-way voice
or non-voice communications only to establish communications with
another person, send an emergency message, provide traveler assistance,
provide location information, transmit a brief
text message, make a voice page, or to conduct a brief test.
----end quote--------

Unless your announcements of geyser "events" fall within the exceptions
for one-way voice communications, you are in violation. People here can
give you their opinions, and people at the park are giving you their
opinions. What are you going to do? Take the opinions that you like and
say they're authoritative?

My suggestion is to thank the complainers for taking to time to share
their expertise with you, wait for them to walk off, then continue.
You're not going to win them over.

[WQGT447]

Post by Phil Stripling

Post by WQGT447
and seeing how folks here are likely to be well-versed in
FCC regs such as they are, thought I would try this avenue.

I assume you've read Section Sec. 95.193(a) at
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.193.htm

Thank you so much for this response, Phil - Yes, several times. I
have a headache!

Post by Phil Stripling
I think that's pretty much all the help you'll get. Nobody here has any
greater authority on interpreting the regs than the people complaining
nor of your friends and you. Only the FCC has greater authority, and
they won't say.

Yepp, no kidding.

Post by Phil Stripling
If you haven't read the rules (and I won't vouch that these are the
latest), there are four for FRS.
Rule 1 says you can use FRS unless you're the agent of a foreign
government:http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.191.htm
Rule 2 tells where you can use FRS, and it's too long to summarize:http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.192.htm
Rule 3 says you are to use FRS for two-way communication, with some
exceptions:http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.193.htm
Rule 4 says FRS units must be FCC certified:http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.
gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr95.194.htm
I think Rule 1 says the rangers at the park can use FRS, given that
they are not representatives of a foreign government. The problem is
----quote------
You may use an FRS unit to transmit one-way voice
or non-voice communications only to establish communications with
another person, send an emergency message, provide traveler assistance,
provide location information, transmit a brief
text message, make a voice page, or to conduct a brief test.
----end quote--------

This little discussion helps alot -

The Rule 1 has been a stickler for the curmudgeons...they claim that
VC Rangers may not be able to use them as prescribed in Part 95 CFR,
since *their* use would be in some form of "official" capacity as a
opposed to a "personal" capacity. If this problematic interpretation
were to disappear, then the rest would fall into place - Why? Because
every geyser announcement could then easily be shown to be directed
toward the visitor center ranger-on-duty, clearly making it a person-
to-person two way call. The VC rangers generally acknowledge receipt
of the transmission anyway, so - there you are. The fact that up to
40 - 50 other radio equipped individuals could also hear it, and
respond if they so choose, would be no problem.

Post by Phil Stripling
Unless your announcements of geyser "events" fall within the exceptions
for one-way voice communications, you are in violation. People here can
give you their opinions, and people at the park are giving you their
opinions. What are you going to do? Take the opinions that you like and
say they're authoritative?

Well, I hear you - the FCC is the only real authority, as you say, and
they aren't helpful (in fact, some of their phone staff seem downright
clueless, and unaware of FRS or GMRS altogether). I guess my hope was
that somebody here might have encountered a similar experience, and be
able to relate their results. Having said that, your answer has been
about as helpful as anything could be, and I appreciate it.

Post by Phil Stripling
My suggestion is to thank the complainers for taking to time to share
their expertise with you, wait for them to walk off, then continue.
You're not going to win them over.

Agreed - my greater concern is that they would follow through on their
threat to report us, either out of rigid adherence to their perception
of the rules, or spite, or both. After this discussion, though, it
strikes me, perhaps, that the only person potentially in violation of
the rules is the ranger. (?) Weird. In any case, thanks - now I can
further my career as an amateur lawyer ;-)

Bruce

[Slint Flig]

Honestly and practically, whatever the black-letter law is on the subject, I
can't imagine the FCC coming down on you guys. FRS is essentially the "wild
west" of the radio bands. People use it so unprofessionally.. where I live
you turn it on and hear kids yelling or somebody playing music that it seems
ANY use short of coordinating terrorist gangs is ok.

Tell whoever is complaining about it to bongle your dongle.

Post by WQGT447
strikes me, perhaps, that the only person potentially in violation of
the rules is the ranger. (?) Weird. In any case, thanks - now I can
further my career as an amateur lawyer ;-)
Bruce

[Phil Stripling]

Post by WQGT447
they claim that
VC Rangers may not be able to use them as prescribed in Part 95 CFR,
since *their* use would be in some form of "official" capacity as a
opposed to a "personal" capacity.

I'm not aware of a dichotomy between 'personal' and 'official.' Here's
the subsection:
----quote--------
(a) Unless you are a representative of a foreign government, you are
authorized by this rule to operate an FCC certified FRS unit in
accordance with the rules in this subpart. No license will be issued.
-----end quote---------

Since there are only 4 rules, I'd print them out and ask the
complainers what exactly leads them to the conclusion that there is
such a distinction. Again, I'd ask sincerely, saying that I have the
rules here and don't see the problem, please explain where it says what
they say it says. NOTE: Please make sure that you have the current
rules on FRS; I have no idea when they were last updated.

You won't win an argument. If they do complain to the FCC, I'm not sure
what the outcome would be, but you _might_ get an answer. :->

As I mentioned before, you can't 'broadcast' messages (a broadcast is a
one-way communication with no answer expected; "Attention all tourists
- A geyer event is happening at this time" for example). If the
complaint is that the transimission is directed at a Ranger, call
someone else, secure in the knowledge that a Ranger may be monitoring
your two-way transmission. ("Victor? This is Roger. A geyser event is
happening." "Roger, Roger. What's the vector? Victor.")

There _may_ be some rule in some other Part of the FCC regulations that
prohibits park rangers or federal officials or some other wording that
snags the rangers, so ask if those officious jerks can cite you the
rule concerning 'official' vs. 'personal.' It may be you learn
something. The jerks certainly won't.

[WQGT447]

Post by Phil Stripling

Post by WQGT447
they claim that
VC Rangers may not be able to use them as prescribed in Part 95 CFR,
since *their* use would be in some form of "official" capacity as a
opposed to a "personal" capacity.

I'm not aware of a dichotomy between 'personal' and 'official.' Here's
----quote--------
(a) Unless you are a representative of a foreign government, you are
authorized by this rule to operate an FCC certified FRS unit in
accordance with the rules in this subpart. No license will be issued.
-----end quote---------
Since there are only 4 rules, I'd print them out and ask the
complainers what exactly leads them to the conclusion that there is
such a distinction. Again, I'd ask sincerely, saying that I have the
rules here and don't see the problem, please explain where it says what
they say it says. NOTE: Please make sure that you have the current
rules on FRS; I have no idea when they were last updated.
You won't win an argument. If they do complain to the FCC, I'm not sure
what the outcome would be, but you _might_ get an answer. :->
As I mentioned before, you can't 'broadcast' messages (a broadcast is a
one-way communication with no answer expected; "Attention all tourists
- A geyer event is happening at this time" for example). If the
complaint is that the transimission is directed at a Ranger, call
someone else, secure in the knowledge that a Ranger may be monitoring
your two-way transmission. ("Victor? This is Roger. A geyser event is
happening." "Roger, Roger. What's the vector? Victor.")
There _may_ be some rule in some other Part of the FCC regulations that
prohibits park rangers or federal officials or some other wording that
snags the rangers, so ask if those officious jerks can cite you the
rule concerning 'official' vs. 'personal.' It may be you learn
something. The jerks certainly won't.
--
Phil Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
The Civilized Explorer | spam and read later. email from this URLhttp://www.cieux.com/ |http://www.civex.com/ is read daily.

Thanks, Phil. These are good ideas, and I will pass them on to the
other gazers. I will also check the latest regs to make sure no
changes have occured.

Bruce